Supercharger or Turbo, let the debate begin!

[coached4417]

cobra20sc,
My definition of streetable, is something you could drive everyday and enjoy some early morning high speed cruises out to Captree just for the fun of it. If a Camaro, Challenger or G37 was interested I would be confident when I put my foot in it that I had a legitimate shot. I don't need some uncontrollable beast or car that runs so rough my kidneys are malfunctioning just to be fast. Right now I haven't caught the track bug, probably because I've never run on one and this is my first car ever with track potential. For my 40th, I'm probably going to go to some driving school to improve my skills and my desire for the track might change after that who knows. Any driving school suggestions?
My understanding in terms of engine life and power adders is that the lower the boost the less wear and tear, one reason I'm considering the Edelbrock based on what they promise, 160Hp at 5 to 8 Psi if I remember correctly. I have read some good things about the Saleen SC with shaker attachment but I don't know the boost #'s.

 

[MaximumRisk]

Maximum Risk,
I'm looking for 400 to 500Hp at the rear wheels for a car that for now is my daily driver, I don't have a time line, so its possible by the time I can afford to do this right it won't be my daily driver anymore. In terms of ET's I'm not looking for a track car, so I don't think my 1/4 mile time is a priority other than wanting to know what it is. I am looking to add a boost system that is low maintenance, durable and consistent in the Hp it produces. All the input NY Mustangs has given has been great and has given me an education that some of the other forums I have visited have not. Those are the requirements I am looking for, I think either boost system can meet them price is an issue for now but I don't mind saving longer if it means I get what I want the right way. Earlier in the thread people have suggested to upgrade suspension and brakes before a power adder and that makes sense. I appreciate your input.

I see. In that case I would recommend a supercharger kit just because of its simplicity and ease of installation. Just make sure you get a quality kit like Vortech or ProCharger.
I own a turbo car, and I would never look at another poweradder, but I have to tell you that they are not as "bolt on" as a supercharger kit.

 

[cobra20sc]

cobra20sc,
My definition of streetable, is something you could drive everyday and enjoy some early morning high speed cruises out to Captree just for the fun of it. If a Camaro, Challenger or G37 was interested I would be confident when I put my foot in it that I had a legitimate shot. I don't need some uncontrollable beast or car that runs so rough my kidneys are malfunctioning just to be fast. Right now I haven't caught the track bug, probably because I've never run on one and this is my first car ever with track potential. For my 40th, I'm probably going to go to some driving school to improve my skills and my desire for the track might change after that who knows. Any driving school suggestions?
My understanding in terms of engine life and power adders is that the lower the boost the less wear and tear, one reason I'm considering the Edelbrock based on what they promise, 160Hp at 5 to 8 Psi if I remember correctly. I have read some good things about the Saleen SC with shaker attachment but I don't know the boost #'s.

Based on your requirement to be streetable, I stand by my original recommendation to go with a positive displacement supercharger like a KB, whipple, Edelbrock, etc. I based this on the following:
* you have a manual transmission so you'll want a lot of off idle torque to get you off the line.
* you want power to come on smooth to be streetable, no peaky power curve.
* your car is relatively heavy so you'll want a lot of low end torque (you could also just add more rear gear in which case you'll be short shifting first on the street once you come off the line and into power and the tires break loose).
I would advise against a centrifugal supercharger like a Vortech or Procharger, for the very reasons listed above. They make good power up top but you will be disappointed in the low end torque they will make. Its the problem that I deal with today. And back when I had the 03 cobra, that was a much more fun car to drive at 140RWHP less. Hit the loud pedal anywhere in the RPM range and you go. No waiting for boost to spool up, no waiting for RPM's to get to the sweet spot. If you were running an automatic, the recommendation could change.

Now I know the turbo guys are still going say turbo is the way to go. I still owe some kind of comparison between a turbo and supercharger based on power/torque curves. Unfortunately we haven't gotten much to compare to so I'll probably go ahead and do it comparing the 4.6L 3V 17psig single turbo with the 4.6L 4V 17psig supercharged and just make some assumptions to get it to a red apple to green apple comparison.

Regarding wear and tear on the engine, its not the boost that takes away from the life of the engine but the resultant power that comes from the added airflow that the supercharger is providing. Reread my post on the Edlebrock supercharger I submitted earlier in this thread. The stress induced by the pressure from the discharge of the supercharger is small relative to the stresses induced by the added power the combusion process is producing. For example, on a very simplistic look taking the 4.6L and its connecting rods and pistons, the force from 10psig of boost on a piston with a 3.537in bore is only 98lbs (about 8% more load than design). Assuming that you'll make an additional 100ft-lbs of torque at the crank, you'll induce 339lbs more load on the pistons/connecting rods. (that's 29% more than design).

-Chris

 

[BlackStang14]

Not sure how Procharger got its own category of forced induction. Let's review there are:
turbos or any of the superchargers can be setup correctly for drag, road racing, dyno (whatever that means), or highway.
-chris

Centri Chargers as in Paxton/Vortech/Procharger is what I ment...

Turbos are not Ideal for the track "from what I heard" unless you are anti lagging or have a transbreak... I am new to forced induction I am just reciting what I have heard...:smash:

 

[Glueyes]

Turbos are not Ideal for the track "from what I heard"

You have heard wrong.I had a vortech on my car and switched to a turbo..I don't have it installed yet,but i will never go back to a belt driven power adder,to much strain on the motor..You will also make more power with less boost..People cry about turbo lag,but if you have it set up properly,that should not even be in issue..I should be at full boost at 3200 rpms as apposed to my vortech that boost starts kicking in at around 3000 and at full boost at around 6000..

 

[BlackStang14]

You have heard wrong.I had a vortech on my car and switched to a turbo..I don't have it installed yet,but i will never go back to a belt driven power adder,to much strain on the motor..You will also make more power with less boost..People cry about turbo lag,but if you have it set up properly,that should not even be in issue..I should be at full boost at 3200 rpms as apposed to my vortech that boost starts kicking in at around 3000 and at full boost at around 6000..

obviously I have no problems with turbos it's free horse power... But when you put a 70 - 80mm turbo on a car you are going to lag like a women...

 

[shady-ooc]

that is why he said properly set up. My 76mm turbo has very little lag. there are people on here that have seen my car and been in my car that can verify that there is very little lag and is capable of doing 30lb of boost. Turbos have come a long way. just look at the new turbo cars coming off the show room floors ( SHO, Eco boost, STI, Cobalt SS, MDX).

 

[cobra20sc]

You have heard wrong.I had a vortech on my car and switched to a turbo..I don't have it installed yet,but i will never go back to a belt driven power adder,to much strain on the motor..You will also make more power with less boost..People cry about turbo lag,but if you have it set up properly,that should not even be in issue..I should be at full boost at 3200 rpms as apposed to my vortech that boost starts kicking in at around 3000 and at full boost at around 6000..

Can you elaborate on the "too much strain on the motor comment?" I have heard this many times before but am not convinced that this is the case especially on street kits designed with 10-16psig of boost where belt tensioning to avoid slippage is held to a reasonable level.

Regarding lag, lets be sure to distinguish between lag (response time from the time you go WOT to the time you're generating airflow and thus power at any RPM) and airflow/boost characteristic across the rpm range. back in the day, people cried about both. these days, with improvements in lightweight materials, bearings, etc., most people are really only crying about the latter. If you're expecting full boost at 3200rpm, then likely you will not see much below 2800rpm in which case your motor will feel like a n/a engine. of course this will be far better than the vortech's
airflow response across the rpm range but still not comparable to a positive displacement superchargers airflow response in <3000rpm range.

I agree with the fact that turbo's can be used very well in drag racing applications, especially when mated to an automatic with the proper converter stall speed. Taking the example above, selecting a stall speed around 3000rpm would allow the motor to load at that rpm at the starting line such that when you let off the brake, the turbos will already be generating peak airflow/boost. But remember that the engine needs to see load in order for the turbos to spool so it'll be more difficult on a car with a standard transmission. You'll have to drop the clutch off the line at a higher RPM (and of course some stickys to hook) in order to ensure higher exhaust flow (remember, change in momentum) that will allow the turbo to spool quicker.

-Chris

 

[MaximumRisk]

... But remember that the engine needs to see load in order for the turbos to spool so it'll be more difficult on a car with a standard transmission. You'll have to drop the clutch off the line at a higher RPM (and of course some stickys to hook) in order to ensure higher exhaust flow (remember, change in momentum) that will allow the turbo to spool quicker.

-Chris

or you can install a 2-step, or anti-lag as it is called now.

 

[cobra20sc]

oh, is that what an anti-lagging device is. lol.

who out there is using one on a turbo motor with a manual transmission? curious as to how effective they are at allowing the turbo to spool to get boost during the launch by bouncing off a rev limiter at WOT? what are typical RPM settings?

 

[MaximumRisk]

I used to have one with a h/c/i 302 and a 62mm turbo combo, the 2-step set at 3500 rpms I was seeing ~7-8 psi and at 4100rpms ~10psi.

 

[BlackStang14]

Anti lagging Is not s great solution unless you have a good ball bearing turbo... None the less it can cause bad back spooling and is not a good idea...

 

[coached4417]

Chris,
Your last post in taking into consideration what I'm looking for was perfect for the scientist in me. What your saying about each power adder, its pros and cons and the applications of each has been the best I've read in terms of an understandable explanation. You have definetly helped me make up my mind between the two and also what type of supercharger is preferable to meet my needs. As money becomes available it will be a positive displacement super charger and the manufacturers you mentioned will allow me to focus my research even more. Your time and expertise is really appreciated and everyones generous input is why NY Mustangs is the best forum I've been a part of. Thanks to everybody.
Not that the debate has ended, because it appears the two parties are as devoted as Yankee vs Met fans, Jets vs Giants, but we all can agree on the Mustang. Good Stuff.