Supercharger or Turbo, let the debate begin!

[cobra20sc]

here is my dyno with a 76mm turbo, 9.1:1 comp, 17psi

link to vid
http://s674.photobucket.com/albums/vv106/shady-ooc/?action=view&current=mustangdyno.flv&newest=1

Could you provide a few more specifics? Is it a manual transmission? Is it pretty much a stock 4.6L 3V otherwise?
Any chance you have a dyno pull from 2000RPM? What I don't understand are dyno operators aversion to starting the pull at lower RPM's. Do we all go around cruising at 3000RPM?

Ok, any 4.6L 3V out there running 17psi on a KB, whipple?

 

[cobra20sc]

Very nice

There was some discussion earlier about comparing power adders on the same engine. While I can't help with that what I can do is present this for comparison sake.


Here is mine on low boost & 93 pump gas,

Similar power only higher in the RPM range could be due to less cubes(almost 1/2?), different turbo(T4 frame 6?mm), less CR(less than 8:1) & more boost (21-22psi).

So, we all agree Turbos FTUMFW ?

Now just keep saving

Can you describe what is on this graph? What are the second set of curves that start at 5000RPM showing?

Lets keep this an honest comparison and not jump to conclusions. If we want to continue to compare apples to oranges we could just throw up the dyno graph in the following post (17psig 03 cobra) compared to the 4.6L 3V 17 psig turbo results posted and call it a day (supercharger FTUMFW). But that's not an entirely fair comparison.

http://newyorkmustangs.com/forums/steg-4-numbers-t9710.html

p.s. apologies in advance for referencing the post w/o asking first.

-Chris

 

[cobra20sc]

Thanks for the help. I hope you get some takers on your experiment, as a science teacher the results would be interesting considering my questions. Low end torque not good on turbos and centrifugal chargers, which could end a race right away with a bad start or an inability to get off the line. So why go anywhere else then the positive displacement? Turbos, in my understanding also cap off at a certain rpm range, right?
So I am assuming the benefits to the other 2 are the level of power they produce is greater when in the mid rpm ranges, enough to make it worth while, if the race is long enough (1/4 mile). (I think out loud, in my attempt to understand all of this.) What are the negatives of the positive displacement?

There's a trade off on turbos, you must select wisely based on your application, select it on the small size and you'll make torque at 2K RPM but cap out at 5K RPM. Select it on the large size and you'll make big power up to and past 6K RPM but will hurt torque production below 3KRPM. These are just numbers to illustrate the idea. Thus the advantage of a staged twin turbo (remember the Supra?)
The disadvantage to positive displacement superchargers are their inherent inefficiencies at high flow rates (well compared to centrifugal compressors). Higher inefficiencies, hotter discharge temps and you'll need to limit timing to prevent detonation. So boost for boost, a centrifugal has more potential for top end power than a positive displacement.

-Chris

 

[shady-ooc]

from I get from this is the Turbo is the best way to go if money is not a option. There are plenty of positive displacement superchargers and centrifugal compressors kits with a can tune to get you the hp you want for less money. If you want to go Big Later I would get a Turbo.

 

[MaximumRisk]

nothing beats the performance of a properly sized Turbo, but it is more expensive and involved to install than a supercharger.
And as far as the turbo having lag, that something of the past. A properly sized turbo for your motor will spool fast and keep pulling until redline. but even if your turbo is a little on the large side a little lag off the line is not the worst thing in a STREET car it'll help you get you rolling before boost hits you like a freight train, to give you another example my car is a 331 with a small 76mm, i see full boost by 3400rpm (15psi) and keeps pulling HARD past 6800rpm (my redline)
If you are going to race it, just install a two step and you are done, boost right off the line.

I do not have a dyno sheet at the time, but I do have this video from last year. If you pause near the end you can see the dyno graph on the screen.

 

[jkstang78]

Turbo kits are definitely more efficient and with the rising costs of gas prices and government mandates on manufacturers to meet mpg requirements, that is the way to go.

Are you running an automatic in your car?

What's the lowest RPM your turbos spool up at? Reworded differently, about how much boost are you running at 2000RPM? I'm continually shopping for turbo kits for the day I can buy one and that is a prerequisite for me, boost response at off idle . . .and I don't want to cap power off at 5000rpm.

-Chris

Yes I run an automatic. All I know is soon As i hit the throttle My turbo starts to spool. I don't have the lag that I hear so many people talk about. I don't know if that is because I have a 347 and a small 65mm turbo and it just makes it spool up quick. But it seems to be just a hair behind my lightning blower.

 

[jkstang78]

Here are 2 dyno sheets 1 is 15 psi

This one was at 30 psi and we didn't realize it was at 30 Because the boost gauge that was in the car only went to 15 psi. We stuck a autometer boost gauge in the car that went to 20 spi. Not only did it go to 20 psi but it went right past that and pegged the gauge. I would have liked to had them stay in it. But I don't know if the fuel system would have maxed out.

 

[Quick281]

Quick281,
Brenspeed is in Indiana, according to the website, did you just buy from them or actually have them install it also?

just bought stuff from them, had the cams installed locally and did everything else myself

 

[ProjectSVO]

Can you describe what is on this graph? What are the second set of curves that start at 5000RPM showing?

Lets keep this an honest comparison and not jump to conclusions. If we want to continue to compare apples to oranges we could just throw up the dyno graph in the following post (17psig 03 cobra) compared to the 4.6L 3V 17 psig turbo results posted and call it a day (supercharger FTUMFW). But that's not an entirely fair comparison.

http://newyorkmustangs.com/forums/steg-4-numbers-t9710.html

p.s. apologies in advance for referencing the post w/o asking first.

-Chris

Chris, sure thing.

The second set of curves actually end at 5000rpm. They are deceleration curves from closing the throttle while still recording. Normally a dyno operator will stop recording when you lift the throttle.

On this run I was tuning "throttle closed" fuel cut settings & some other stuff to eliminate popping & coast down trailer hitching. By recording that part of the decel I got the AFR & other data I needed figure out what was going on.

Sorry for any confusion.

I agree we need to keep it fair, I wasn't trying to skew anything. Rather my intent was to provide a comparison of the potential of a turbo system when matched & set up correctly. In my case turbo is able to flow nearly the same mass flow despite the displacement handicap I have.

I like to think of it an apple to "apple+cake" comparison.

 

[coached4417]

I see your point with the DYNOS, the amount of HP produced is in the range I am looking for, now the one DYNO had a significant drop off at 5000rpms, is that the turbo cap off that has been mentioned at the higher rpm ranges. My thought process is more than just big HP, does the turbo deliver where and when you need it, ie. off the line to get the lead and at the end to finish what you started, it is all about kicking the G37, camaro, vette, challenger guys ass isn't it? When the guys has spent so much more than we did and he still loses, it doesn't get much better than that for me.

 

[BlackStang14]

Depends what you want it for... Granted you can make any setup beast for anything but specifically...
S/c tvs - Drag
Turbo - Dyno and highway
Procharger - Dyno - dragish and highway

Procharger needs to be checked up on and watched avidly
s/c you can just trow on and not worry about
Turbo can be a hassle and a half

Procharger you make power from power. belt driven
S/c You make powere from power. belt driven

Turbo you make power from exhaust so essentially power from nothing.

You have to figure out what you want to do, the numbers you want and how often you want to be doing check ups...
Nothing is perfect but you have to see what best fits you...

 

[coached4417]

In terms of maintenance the less the better, I don't want a high maintenance system that is going to cost me drive time. I am looking for a set up that will give me shot at most cars on the street that I can drive everyday. If I have to save longer to do it right I can be patient. Let's talk exhaust note, from what I've seen the super charger provides the classic American Muscle sound, how does that compare to the turbo?
I just got done reading an article on a turbonetics system in an S197, how high maintenance is that type of system?
The education has been great. Thanks.

 

[BlackStang14]

In terms of maintenance the less the better, I don't want a high maintenance system that is going to cost me drive time. I am looking for a set up that will give me shot at most cars on the street that I can drive everyday. If I have to save longer to do it right I can be patient. Let's talk exhaust note, from what I've seen the super charger provides the classic American Muscle sound, how does that compare to the turbo?
I just got done reading an article on a turbonetics system in an S197, how high maintenance is that type of system?
The education has been great. Thanks.

Exhaust on a turbo setup will be quiter... I am building a TT setup right now so I will post videos in a month or so when its running...

Sounds like a Super charger is for you... Get a Saleen Blower used 2500-3500 slap it on get GT500 twin pumps, Injectors, heat exchanger and be happy... The saleens can put out a considerable amount of power SAFELY and be very Reliable...
You will get off the line like a bandit and have good mid range but fall off a "tad" up top....
Stay away from the M90 Whipple if you want to make more then 460whp cause around that hp range they are maxed...

 

[cobra20sc]

ok, so where did we leave off . . . . . .

come on guys, lets see more dyno results. so far we have results for
* 4.6L 3V single turbo 17psig boost
* 4.6L 4V positive displacement supercharger 17psig boost
* 2.3L 2V single turbo 22psig boost
* 331 2V single turbo 15psig boost @3400 (not sure what max boost is and the dyno graph will be hard to read the numbers off of
* 347 2V single turbo 15psig and 30psig boost

too many apples and oranges. i know there's a lot of termi dyno graphs available for supercharged . . . .any turbo's out there?

the advantages of each can better be explained with results. let's see them. otherwise i can make the best comparison out of the first two listed here.

-chris

 

[cobra20sc]

Depends what you want it for... Granted you can make any setup beast for anything but specifically...
S/c tvs - Drag
Turbo - Dyno and highway
Procharger - Dyno - dragish and highway

Procharger needs to be checked up on and watched avidly
s/c you can just trow on and not worry about
Turbo can be a hassle and a half

Procharger you make power from power. belt driven
S/c You make powere from power. belt driven

Turbo you make power from exhaust so essentially power from nothing.

You have to figure out what you want to do, the numbers you want and how often you want to be doing check ups...
Nothing is perfect but you have to see what best fits you...

Not sure how Procharger got its own category of forced induction. Let's review there are:
* centrifugal superchargers - these are compressors that generate airflow on the basis of centrifugal acceleration and therefore the airflow comes from speed. they are driven off of the engine crank shaft and therefore their speed is tied directly with engine RPM's. They also require power/energy from the crank to drive it. Some common kits out there are Vortech, Paxton, Powerdyne, Procharger
* positive displacement superchargers - these compressors move a fixed volume of air with each revolution. the compression of air (and therefore the density/mass flow) that results is from the greater volume of air that the supercharger is moving relative to the volume of air that the engine is moving (engine is the restriction). as a result, the compression of air happens at almost any compressor speed. they are driven off of the engine crank shaft and therefore their speed is tied directly with engine RPM's. They also require power/energy from the crank to drive it. Some common kits out there are Kenne Bell, Whipple, Eaton.
* turbos - these are centrifugal compressors that are mated to a expansion turbine section that captures energy in the exhaust. the centrifugal compressor is similar to design as what is described in the supercharger counterpart. its speed is driven by the speed of the turbine section which gains its speed from the energy of the exhaust. this energy would otherwise be exhausted/wasted to atmosphere. when considering the transient response of a turbo (and its resultant throttle response), from idle or a cruise, the exhaust energy is relatively low and therefore the tubo's shaft and therefore compressor is idling. when you snap the throttle open, the engine starts to move more air, produce more exhaust which the turbine section starts to capture and spin the compressor. the compressor supplies the air to the engine which can then make more power. the throttle response therefore is limited to how fast you can change the momentum of the air moving through the engine, turbine, and compressor as well as the momentum change in the turbo's turbine/compressor assembly. some common kits are hellion, HP, B&G, turbonetics.

turbos or any of the superchargers can be setup correctly for drag, road racing, dyno (whatever that means), or highway.
-chris

 

[cobra20sc]

In terms of maintenance the less the better, I don't want a high maintenance system that is going to cost me drive time. I am looking for a set up that will give me shot at most cars on the street that I can drive everyday. If I have to save longer to do it right I can be patient. Let's talk exhaust note, from what I've seen the super charger provides the classic American Muscle sound, how does that compare to the turbo?
I just got done reading an article on a turbonetics system in an S197, how high maintenance is that type of system?
The education has been great. Thanks.

I believe that turbos and supercharger kits designed these days have similar maintenance and durability issues (and therefore head aches) and that there is no real generalizations about the advantages of one of the other in this respective. Perhaps if we were talking 5-10 years ago, turbos would have been considered a hassle but that is likely because the development of their kits were not as a mature product like the supercharger kits that have been around for many years with lots of development work and experience (at least on Mustangs).

But this is can be considered all hear-say so lets get the input from those out there that have different setups.

For me, my experience with the Vortech supercharger kit has been very positive. It has proven to be a very durable kit being on the car for 9+ years (~40K miles) with no issues. As a counterpoint, I had a friend that bought a Powerdyne unit around the time I bought my Vortech kit who had ALOT of issues that were common back then. He wound up selling it to by a Vortech kit. Both Powerdyne and Vortech are centrifugal units. The point being that its tough to make generalizations regarding durability and reliability of any of these forced induction groupings.

Lets get more input on other kits please. I'll say it again, the results speak for themselves. And one of the biggest advantages of being on a forum is to hear about everyone's experience with the different products out there so that we can all make informed decisions.

-chris

 

[coached4417]

What is the basic maintenance for each system? How are they different, the same? How does each system effect the overall life of the engine and other parts? What if you add a nitrous system, to a SC or turbo system, can it still be streetable? Has anybody done that? More questions, but how else am I going to learn, Thanks guys.

 

[MaximumRisk]

answer me this: What are your power/et goals and budget for this project?. It will help us help you make a choice.

 

[cobra20sc]

What is the basic maintenance for each system? How are they different, the same? How does each system effect the overall life of the engine and other parts? What if you add a nitrous system, to a SC or turbo system, can it still be streetable? Has anybody done that? More questions, but how else am I going to learn, Thanks guys.

was hoping more people would chime in with their experiences on the different kits. my vortech kit was pretty much maintenance free the whole time I've owned it sans the occasional belt tensioning and hose clamp tightening. I'd imagine most supercharger kits are very similar. In the 38K miles I owned my 03 cobra, I never did a damn thing. I can't imagine what would be different with turbo kits so someone will need to chime in on those.
i've seen nitrous used on a supercharged engine a number of times. they are helpful in bringing inlet temperatures down when running in hot weather or overspinning the 03 cobra's eaton into the non-efficient area of the map. when you mean streetable, what exactly are you referring to?
any forced induction will reduce the overall life of the engine and drivetrain. all things are designed with a factor of safety and when you increase the power/torque production past the design levels, you eat into its design life. however, i'd imagine these days that most manufacturers are designing to much farther past 200K miles and if Ford is really doing their job and listening to their customers, their actually designing things in anticipation that you'll be modifying it. the short answer is that turbo's and superchargers will reduce the life of the engine and drivetrain. reduce it from what is the question.

-chris

 

[coached4417]

Maximum Risk,
I'm looking for 400 to 500Hp at the rear wheels for a car that for now is my daily driver, I don't have a time line, so its possible by the time I can afford to do this right it won't be my daily driver anymore. In terms of ET's I'm not looking for a track car, so I don't think my 1/4 mile time is a priority other than wanting to know what it is. I am looking to add a boost system that is low maintenance, durable and consistent in the Hp it produces. All the input NY Mustangs has given has been great and has given me an education that some of the other forums I have visited have not. Those are the requirements I am looking for, I think either boost system can meet them price is an issue for now but I don't mind saving longer if it means I get what I want the right way. Earlier in the thread people have suggested to upgrade suspension and brakes before a power adder and that makes sense. I appreciate your input.