Question for Scott (ugotbit) and whomever else

[04Snake]

I was going to send Scott a message but heck someone else might benefit from his Ford Tech knowledge, so this is what I was going to ask him:

looking for some suggestions when I rebuild my 4V:

I am getting ready to pull the motor from my 04 to rebuild it so is there anything that is a no-brainer to do while it is apart? I might add mild cams but since this is really going to be my spare motor not sure how much I want to invest in something that might live in the corner of my garage in the future.

Better ARP retainers + ??

My goal is a consistent 10 sec car, maybe low tens with a little juice but I have no interest in attaching a chute or doing nines, not in this car since I hope to keep it on the street a few months a year. I am very happy with my over built 6-point cage so if I put everything back to the way Ford built it I am already at my goal but lack the consistency with my over heating ported Eaton. At some point I might switch to a race oriented motor and make this a track only car but it will still only be a 10.0 car, possibly without a blower for max consistency.

What parts would you upgrade with everything apart? The SVT parts are really good and I don't think I have much damage other than some scored cylinders, I had a camera in there and nothing is burnt just no compression on 3 holes but I won't know for sure until it is apart. Is there a deeper oil pan that will still have clearance for the k-member than I should switch too. I plan to switch to a cro-moly K-member as the next upgrade but I have to get past this expensive motor job without short changing something that is worth replacing or upgrading with everything apart. I would like to switch to a more efficient whipple maybe as part of this build since I did all the stuff so I have plenty of fuel and a SCT 2800 MAF but that all depends on how much I have to sink into internals since I can switch blowers later.

Scott, thanks in advance!

- stu

 

[ugotbit]

Stu-

Oh man where to start.

Block- What did you plan on using? The Alm blocks would be a great way for you to save some weight, and since your not planning on running massive power, are a great option to think about. The Teksid, "Mountain", Aluminator and current 05+ 4.6 block are all great choices and vary in price. I would SERIOUSLY conside these for your application(drag racing) because you are looking at machine work anyway you go. Most Alm blocks can go .020 over with no relibality issues.

Then there is the big dawg Boss 5.0 block. FRPP just reduced the price on this bad boy to $999 and I have seen them as low as $925. Tough as nails, and who can complain about a few extra cubes? The bigger bore (3.70") helps with unshrouding the valves. (A good thing) It is cast iron, so you would not be gaining any weight over the stock block. They also have only 4 bolt mains, but come so the jack screws or side bolts can be drilled, You would have to pay the machine shop and source some good hardware.

Cams- I would not go to crany with the cams. John Mihovetz, a Modular wizard shared some good info about cams a while back. For those who don't know who he is, he runs a turbo 4v, 281 CID making over 2000HP. Nuff said. He sad to shy away from the big lift grinds, because they promote valvetrain instabillity at higher RPM. He reccomonded to go with a shelf cam with no greater than .475 lift. The big secret with the cams is in the timing, and no one is telling. Degreeing the cams to the cam manufactures specs is a good place to start, but I think there is even more power in the timing. Keep in mind with the cams, you are going to need springs. Livernois makes one of the best springs on the market.

Heads- The 03-04 heads are the best production heads available for our 4.6 engines. Sure the 5.4 heads (Cobra R, Ford GT and GT500) are better, but premium parts come with primium price tags. Head porting is always a option and will help. Livernois had a verry impressive CNC head porting program, and other experienced builders, Like Jon @ Modular Performance I'm sure could help out if you decide to go that way. I'd have to do some snooping around to see what the word on the street is about head gaskets.= now a days.

Rotating assembly-
Crank- The stock unit has been proven to over 1000 HP, so no real need to change anything there.
Rods- The stock rods are also a beefy piece made by Manley. They are rated for around 800HP, but turbo guys have seen north of 1K HP with these in a stock long block! Impressive! A set of rods I recently got turned on to by another Cobra owner was Hawks Racing. They offer a Forged H beam with all the good stuff, ARP hardware, and also made in the USA! I have a source that sells the rods at a great price, I can give you the info if interested.
Pistons- The stock units are also forged, but leave some things to be desired. I'm not sure that it is so much of a strength issue, that is is the PTW (Piston-to-wall) clearence that is the problem with the stockers. Obviously,a after market piston is better than the stock piece, and I'm a big fan of Diamonds. They have some great off the shelf choices, and the custom options are endless. L&M Engines offer a custom piston for our apps, and they are top shelf. They also come with a top self price tag.

Link to rods-http://www.hawksracing.com/hbeamrods.htm

Link to pistons-http://www.lmengines.com/lm_pistons

Hardware- ARP everything. Most rods come with ARP hardware, but the head studs, main studs, cam bolts, ect. are not a bad idea either. Plus, all the ARP stuff is reuseable, not like factory TTY (Torque-To-Yeild) stuff.

Oiling system- The are a few options. Adding a bigger pan is one, but keep in mind the cost of your favorite oil at the tune of 9 qts + filter. It adds up fast. I have a Canton pan and windage trey, I look at it like if you have the cash, why not? I have no clearence problems with the stock K-member, and if you plan on going tubular you will have even more clearence. Livernois also has a nice scraper and drain back kit. I did have to cut the stock scraper off the pick up tube to clear the windage trey, not a big deal. Upgrading the pump is not a bad idea, just don't put on a super high volume pump with out the big pan. I also heard the 3v pump was a great OEM pump, I would have to call FRPP and chat with them. Billet gears for the stock pump is also a good investment. I think Melling also offers a pump with stronger gears.

The twin screw blower upgrade would be a good investment as well, but with your main focus on the 1/4, I think a Eaton/Spary combo would be hard to beat. The T/S is more efficent hands down, and IAT2's would be lower on the street, but iced down at the trace the difference will not be that great. The NOS is great, it just requires "maintanece" with keeping bottles filled, pressures up ect.

Tublar K member- I'm surprized you don't have one yet! A great investment as well. Stay away from the QA1 stuff, I know that much. I don't know what brand you were looking at, but I was looking to put something together with UPR as a dealer.

This would be my build for your app.

Stock compression- 8.5:1
Alm block- Take your pick, it's 80lbs off the front end.
Diamond pistons- How crazy you want to get is up to you. Big ring lands, coated skirts and tool steel pins.
Small cams(Degreed)
Hawk Rods
Stock Cobra crank
Calico coated bearings
Canton pan and trey
Oil pump upgrade
ARP EVERYTHING

If I levt anything out, please let me know. I will also add more if I can think of anything.

Any one else can jump in if you got anything!

 

[04Snake]

That is the exact recipe I was looking for, great info Scott! Do you know Jammer (Steve) who works in Noels machine shop in Cohoes, he is the guy doing the motor for me on the side and he knows how to degree cams, the main reason I thought he is the guy for the job. I noticed on another thread you mentioned an adjustable setup for degreeing cams, who makes that again? L&M ? was going to stick with as much FRPP stuff as possible since I can get a great price on that stuff from Tousley Ford. How about the GT40 cam, that is not a super high lift since I think it can pass emissions, right? I need to look up some of these prices and see what I can do but it all sounds doable. Wouldn't I want stick with iron if I am spraying since the cylinder temps can get way up there? After I lighten the front end with a K-member and don't want to go into 10-point/chute territory, I am not sure if I need the lighter block so I was hoping I could machine the one I have now and save some there. Upgraded oil pump, big pan and windage tray, better Pistons, porting/polishing the heads for sure but I was thinking about re-using the Manleys. I guess I have to see what I have when we take it apart but I parked it when it was still running hoping to preserve some stuff like the crank.

I owe you a bar tab, you choose when and where, much appreciated.

Anyone else have any suggestions or trick parts they want to share the info on?

On a side note has anyone ever heard of a Detroit Locker failing, they are rated to 1000hp yet I got a bad one from the factory. Just got the 9" back together in my mudfish, what a mess, the DLocker came apart, took out all the bearings in my over built one month old Moser/Strange 9". It was making noises while I was breaking in the new 4:11 gear set before I even went to the track so I was on the phone and kept getting told, "NAWW it can't be the DLocker, I have NEVER heard of one of them going bad!". At the track only one wheel was locking so it was apparent it had failed. Don't know if Eaton is going to give me anything other than the cost of the replacement but I am chasing them for the bearings, re-assembly labor and shipping but they will proabably just screw me. Just one more company that does not have the same quality as they used to.

Oh well life is a bitch, then you die.

 

[Timspony]

Stu since your rebuild your "Stock" block and stuff in a corner, I'd just rebuild that block to stock specs and call it a day!...Maybe bore over 20 or 30 if needed...

Are you bolting in a New FRPP 03/04 Crate Engine? ...As Scott mentioned, guys with TT putting 1000 hp down with them! ...these Cobra engines built with some nice goodies! Tousley Ford has a good $$$ on them to your door!!

Also, since you want to run low 10's, why not just bolt on a 3.4L Whipple or go the TT route?? TT would be pretty cool to see around here...

Good luck & keep us updated....Tim

 

[04Snake]

Stu since your rebuild your "Stock" block and stuff in a corner, I'd just rebuild that block to stock specs and call it a day!...Maybe bore over 20 or 30 if needed...

Are you bolting in a New FRPP 03/04 Crate Engine? ...As Scott mentioned, guys with TT putting 1000 hp down with them! ...these Cobra engines built with some nice goodies! Tousley Ford has a good $$$ on them to your door!!

Also, since you want to run low 10's, why not just bolt on a 3.4L Whipple or go the TT route?? TT would be pretty cool to see around here...

Good luck & keep us updated....Tim

With a SRA already I don't think I need Turbos to do low 10's, that would put me into the nines wouldn't it? Same with a giant whipple, no I would rather get a built motor and do low 10's on all motor when I go expensive motor. You might have a point about a FRPP crate motor I will have to see what that costs but I thought I could save if I have mine rebuilt since I know a guy that has access to a machine shop and can cut me a real deal on the labor and machine work. Yeah I could go total stock rebuild but I was thinking as long as it is apart if there was a few hundred I could throw here and there and improve on the stock build it would be worth it, even if I put it aside as a number matching spare in the future.

I have to scope it all out and see what costs what and the path will become apparent to me. As with many things about my car, the solution I arrive at will very specific to me and not follow any generally accepted consensus of opinion, that is just me.

 

[Timspony]

Stu you could tune your car by turning down the wick a little with the "big" boost Whipple or TT (or single Turbo) to cut down the R's on the engine and allow it survive a lot longer... and run low 10's all day! SRA the way to go for all out drag racing for sure!

...If I'm not mistaken, Tousley was selling the complete engine with oil in it to your door for $3k...

...Your Cobra is yours, enjoy IT the way YOU see fit...

 

[04Snake]

Stu you could tune your car by turning down the wick a little with the "big" boost Whipple or TT (or single Turbo) to cut down the R's on the engine and allow it survive a lot longer... and run low 10's all day! SRA the way to go for all out drag racing for sure!

...If I'm not mistaken, Tousley was selling the complete engine with oil in it to your door for $3k...

...Your Cobra is yours, enjoy IT the way YOU see fit...

I am on hold for Steve at Tousley right now, if I put a stocker back in there I can rebuild the original to higher spec, maybe use a 5.0 block or make into a stroker and have the crate motor as a spare. I just never want my Cobra on the sidelines more than a couple weeks ever again unless it is wrecked (knock on wood) but there is more than one way to do it for sure. If I have the crate sitting there when we pull the wounded slug we can swap the crate right in there and it is a running chassis instead of a rolling chassis, I like that idea a lot.

 

[Timspony]

Any luck with Tousley Stu?? They also sell a 2.3L Whipple as well....Maybe Steve could get you a package deal!

 

[ugotbit]

No problem. I don't know him, but I have been to nolls a few times, because he did the machine work on a few LSX builds I worked on.

I think L&M offered a set at one time, I'm not sure if they still do, I would call and ask. I know Comp makes a set, but they have a bunch off small screws that are just begging to fall out. If useing them I would loc-tight everything and drill and roll pin them to be safe. You can always file the key ways on the stockers as well.

The GT40 cams are a good choice and OEM quality, but from what I understand they do not offer the exhaust note of some other grinds, not that that matters to you. If the price is right, go for it. You will still need springs.

I don't think the Alm block will have any problems with the Eaton/Spray combo, these blocks stronger than their cast counterpart. I look at it like this, at the strip weight loss is just as good as adding power. You can kill two birds with one stone, and machine work has to be done on whatever block you run anyway. A used Alm block can be had for 200-300, I bought a complete MarkVIII engine for that much, so deals are out there if you find them.

The rods and crank I'm sure can be reused, I just didn't know if you wanted to start new, and swap over the least as possible. The lighter weight will mean less power to go fast, and that's easier on everything.

You know what the deal is. You will get 100 peoples opionions and they are always right.

Turbos are great, if you want to make big dyno numbers or race on the highway. For a turbo car to run good at the track it needs an auto trans. Then there are other things that would change switching over to turbo, compression ratio, cams, rear end gears ect.

The twin screw is a idea, but hell Jake has run in the 9's with a ported Eaton! There are pro's/con's to everything and there is always that money thing. Then there is the debate over what blower and blah blah blah.

Again, let me know if I left anything out, or if you have any other ideas. I like the brainstorming process.

 

[04Snake]

yeah they had me on hold for quite a while for Steve and I had to take off to make to Saunders in Argyle to pick up my truck, here is the deal on crate engines and the deals Tousley can do.

Steve can get a reman 03-04 delivered for $3900 and change, not quite 3K but still a good deal but there is a big catch, you have to ship them back a core or eat a $2000 core charge. $5900 still is not a bad deal but Steve pointed out the best FRPP deal in his estimation was the Aluminator crate which is not a reman, all new, no core for $6100 delivered. Yeah you might find an alum block used for 3-400 but 10% over cost new is $1100! It has all the same 03-04 specs except the alumin block and complete from under the intake to the exhaust manifolds and includes the timing chain cover. Instead of pulling the motor and bolting the k-member back to roll it around and haul it back to my house to keep it out of harms way I can have a running chassis and all the time in the world to re-build the original motor as extreme as I want to go for.

Hmmm.... food for thought.

 

[Timspony]

All good info Stu....I just checked BuyFordRacing & they have this with free shipping http://www.buyfordracing.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=652cPath=11_27

...Brand new, not too bad!

...good thing winter is coming to think it over and make a solid game plan!

 

[04Snake]

All good info Stu....I just checked BuyFordRacing & they have this with free shipping http://www.buyfordracing.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=652cPath=11_27

...Brand new, not too bad!

...good thing winter is coming to think it over and make a solid game plan!

Yup that is the deal, all new with the upgraded newer heads for $6100 delivered thru Tousley. you reminded me that it comes with the Blue Ford Racing cam covers, I got the chrommies they are showing in the pic already..